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Fire and Rescue Statistics User Group

MINUTES OF THE
THIRD MEETING
of the
FIRE STATISTIC USER GROUP
held on
5 June, 2002
in
ROOM G28, HORSEFERRY HOUSE

Present:

Mr G R Evans (Chair)

Fire Brigades Union

Mr J E Gorman (Secretary)

ODPM

Miss C Reynolds

ODPM

Mr M Eady

ODPM

Mr M Reed

ODPM

Mr S Birt

Association of British Insurers

Mr N Charlston

Institution of Fire Engineers

Mr. S. Emery

English Heritage

Mr G Holden

CACFOA

Mr I Jerome

Fire Protection Association

Ms. V Johnson

London Fire Brigade

Mr G Lipscombe

Association of Building Engineers

Mr A Henderson

HM Fire Service Inspectorate for Scotland

Mr B Tucker

Fire Service College

Mr T Wilmot

World Fire Statistics Centre

Mr T Paish

World Fire Statistics Centre

1. INTRODUCTIONS

1.1 The Chair welcomed everyone to the Third Meeting of the Fire Statistics User Group.

2. APOLOGIES FOR ABSENCE.

2.1 Apologies for non-attendance were received from Mr. M. Fordham of the FBU, Mr S Kidd of the Fire Industry Federation, Mr I Evans, Mr D Hobbs, Dr D Peace, Mr R Schofield, Mr T Thorne and Miss L Watson of the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister.

3. MINUTES OF THE PREVIOUS MEETING

3.1 The minutes of the previous meeting were agreed with the following amendments:

3.2 Attendance:
Mr I Jerome of the Fire Protection Association and Mr D Berry of ODPM should be added to the list of persons who attended the meeting. Mr S Birt of the Association of British Insurers should be removed from this list as he had given his apologies for absence.

3.3 Mr T Wilmot:
It was noted that Mr Wilmot's name should be spelt 'Wilmot' not 'Wilmott'.

3.4 Minute 2.1 - Apologies for Absence:
Replace 'Fire Industry Federation' with 'Fire Industry Confederation'.

4. MATTERS ARISING

4.1 Minute 4.1 Proposed Terms of Reference:
The Chair reported that he had recently attended the 2nd International Fire Conference organised by the Fire Information Group in Central London where he was a speaker. The Chair said that during the Conference he had an interesting discussion on fire statistics with Sheila Pantry of Sheila Pantry Associates Ltd. who was co-organiser of the seminar. He believed that Ms Pantry could make a worthwhile contribution to the work of the Group and suggested that he might ask her to join the membership if the Group were in agreement. It was agreed that the Chair should formally invite Ms Pantry to become a member of the Group.
Secretary's Note: The Secretariat had written to Ms Pantry on 7 June, 2002, inviting her to join the Group, as agreed, and enclosing a current membership list, the minutes of the last meeting and the Chair's report of the meeting held on 13 March. Ms Pantry had subsequently replied accepting the invitation and would be attending the next meeting.

4.2 Minute 5 1 - Data from the Collection of FDR1 Statistics:
Miss Watson had given her apologies for absence so this item would be held in abeyance until the next meeting.

4.3 Minute 6.4 - Statistical Information:
At the last meeting Mr Berry had been asked to draft a paper outlining the type of statistical information likely to be required in the future from the Fire Statistics User Group. However, Mr Berry was currently on sick leave, but Mr Eady said he would take over this action in Mr Berry's absence.
(Action Mr Eady)

5. REPORT TO THE FIRE SAFETY ADVISORY BOARD

5.1 The Chair presented his unconfirmed Report of the 2nd Meeting of the User Group, that he had submitted to the seventh meeting of the Fire Safety Advisory Board, to the User Group for their endorsement . He explained that as the Meetings of the Group preceded the meeting of the Fire Safety Advisory Board by approximately a week it was difficult to present the Report to the Group before it went to the Fire Safety Advisory Board. The User Group did not have any specific points to raise so it was agreed that the Report should be accepted.

6. TASK REFERRAL FROM 7TH MEETING OF THE FIRE SAFETY ADVISORY BOARD.

6.1 The Chair presented a Paper to the User Group that was a copy of Item 10 of the Minutes of the Seventh Meeting of the Fire Safety Advisory Board relating to a submission to the Board by The Fire Brigades Union. The Chair explained the background to the proposal from the FBU that data on fires of special interest should be collected, the task that the FSAB had referred to them and then sought the views of the User Group members. After extensive discussion it was felt that there were a number of databases that were already operating and collecting the kind of information that the FBU had recommended should be collected.

6.2 Ms Reynolds asked what use would be made of such information once it were collected. The Chair said that it could be used to decide whether legislation needed introduction or amendment, whether enforcement needed to be redirected in light of experience and for a number of other comparisons including any shortfalls in the building regulations.

6.3 Mr Reed said Mr Jones of HMFSI was undertaking work on fire investigation which included fires of special interest. It was agreed that Mr Jones would be invited to the next meeting, and would be asked to give a presentation on this important area of work.

6.4 Mr Tucker said that the Fire Service College already provided such a service through it's library.

6.5 It was agreed that a working group should be formed to discuss the type of statistics which could be obtained from this important area of work, but it was decided to delay the formation of the group until Mr Eady had spoken to Mr Jones to determine the progress that had been made to date. The matter was set back to the next meeting of the User Group to allow Mr Eady to liaise with Mr Jones.
(Action - Mr Eady)

7. CREATION OF FIRE INFORMATION DATABASE

7.1 Working Group on Currently Available Fire Statistics:
Mr Jerome reported that the Group met on 29 April, 2002, at the Fire Protection Association offices and had produced an Excel spreadsheet indicating the fire statistical data that was currently available. Copies of the paper and spreadsheet were distributed to members at the beginning of the meeting. It was also noted that the report would need to be continuously monitored and updated as and when new databases were identified.

7.2 The Chair stressed the importance of maintaining accurate records as representatives tended to change and the creation of a database would enable all organisations to list and view important pieces of information when required.

7.3 It was proposed and agreed that the database based upon the report could be included on the Fire Policy Division Web site. The Chair thanked the members of the Working Group for their efforts and for producing the report so quickly.

8. FIRE STATISTICS - ANCIENT MONUMENTS AND HISTORIC BUILDINGS

8.1 English Heritage had written to the Chair asking that consideration be given to collating and providing statistical information on fire losses in historic buildings. It was noted that, at present, there was no method for collecting this information as the FDR1 had no provision for this class of building, except as part of a limited list of public buildings, law courts etc. There was also currently no method to allow Brigades to know which buildings were listed, although English Heritage are working with a few brigades and have given them a computer based information of the lists of listed properties for their areas.

8.2 A debate on this subject then ensued. It was felt that if brigades could absorb the information that English Heritage offered to supply to them it would be useful for them in their risk assessment process for fire cover and also in recovering details of the number of fires in such buildings. Historic Scotland has collaborated with two Scottish fire brigades on a pilot scheme to make a CD-Rom containing information on listed buildings with details of historic buildings in all of Scotland. There were concerns however, that the information English Heritage offered to supply might not be compatible with the information and computer systems individual brigades were using. It was agreed that English Heritage would supply London Fire Brigade with a computer disc of all the listed properties in London and they would run a pilot project too see if this information could be accommodated by their computers and how useful it then proved.

8.3 The Chair felt that once this was done and it was confirmed that brigades could accept the information from English Heritage then further consideration could be given to the request for collating and providing statistical fire losses in historic buildings. He added the caveat that this would however probably be a snapshot survey rather than a continuous programme.

8.4 It was agreed that London Fire Brigade, CACFOA and English Heritage would collaborate on this project and provide a report back to the next meeting of the Group.
(Action - LFB - CACFOA- English Heritage)

9. FORTHCOMING EVENTS

9.1 It was noted that the Institution of Fire Engineer's AGM would be held in Belgium between 3-6 July, 2002.

10. ANY OTHER BUSINESS

10.1 There was no further business to discuss so the Chair thanked members for their participation before closing the meeting.

11. DATES OF THE NEXT TWO MEETING

11.1 The next meetings of the Group will be held at 10.30 am, on Thursday 5 September 2002, and Tuesday 12 November 2002 at a venue to be advised (now Ashdown House Room 8A)

Distribution:

To all members of the Fire Statistics User Group
Ms Castle, Fire Safety Advisory Board
Mr G Gower-Kerslake, Fire Safety Advisory Board Secretariat