Skip to content

Fire and Rescue Statistics User Group

23rd Meeting
of the
Fire & Rescue Statistics User Group
held on
2 October 2007 at 10:30 am
Eland House, London, Room LMR3 ABC


Mr. S. Hunt

CFOA Chairman

Mr. A. Paish

World Fire Statistics Centre

Mr. S. Emery

English Heritage

Mr. D. Sugg

Communities and Local Government

Mrs. S. Pantry

Fire Information Group

Mr. D. Beverley


Mr. D. Smith


Ms. K. Bosley

Communities and Local Government

Ms. S. Wright, Secretary

Communities and Local Government






Samantha to send round the latest FRD organogram, for information.
A draft has been created but is not yet ready for circulation.







Darren is to obtain contact details for Graham Ellacote's replacement.



Sheila to contact Anna Hayes regarding FPA hosting the FRSUG website



Samantha to email everyone with the Group's email addresses and promote discussion on potential areas of work to sit in the new proposed work plan



Data Sharing Protocols - Simon is to look at feasibility and suggest a mechanism to discuss with the Group.



Simon to enquire about status /activities of the Metropolitan FRS Statistics Group



Tony Paish to contact CTIF regarding potential engagement with FRSUG (see letter from Essex FRS).


1 Chair's Introduction

1.1 Simon Hunt introduced himself to the Group as the new Chair, having taken over from Glyn Evans after his retirement. Other members present introduced themselves to Simon and welcomed him to the Group.

2 Apologies:


Mr. M Coull

Grampian FRS


Mr. M. Rowan

London-Fire Brigade


Mr. R. Thilthorpe


3 Minutes of the 22nd Meeting


3.1 Pg 1, 'Thilthorpe' (sp.)

3.2 Pg 2, Para 4/5, 'progressing'

3.3 Pg 3, 'Iain'

4 Matters Arising

4.1 Within CLG, Fire and Resilience Directorate has been combined under a Directorate change and is now known as the Cohesion and Resilience Directorate.

4.2 Action 22/1, The FRSUG website will continue to be developed when we are clearer on Directorate changes and where we sit.

4.3 Pg 2, 4.5, Simon will look at this when we discuss the draft constitution proposed amendments.

4.4 Pg 3, The website will be updated when we have a clearer view of Directorate changes

4.5 Pg 3, 10.1, Darren will cover IRS in this meeting.

4.6 Pg 4, 11.2, Simon asked if any Members knew who chairs Met Quarterly FRS meetings. Simon will find out.

4.7 Pg 4, Steve Emery said the Testing of Fire Doors work was still in progress.

David Smith said that ASFP (Assoc. of Specialist Fire Protection) may be able to assist.

Darren is to obtain contact details for Graham Ellacote's replacement.

4.8 Steve said Hants FRS had a sprinkler day but didn't know how it went. He did say that Colvin Trust leader Jamie Colvin had a water mist system fitted in his house at a cost of 27K. They were fitted in risk-rooms only so was relatively expensive. He had four companies in to compare types but went with AquaMist because water and propellant could be stored in cylinders instead of separate pumps and the heads looked nicer and wouldn't collect quarry flies.

4.9 Tony Paish said that the WFSC's 25th anniversary seminar had been held in Paris the previous week. Tony gave a presentation entitled 'The Way Forward'. He had said that in the medium to long term that it was not viable for the WFSC to exist unless an external organisation was prepared to take them on but at and after the conference he had been given three or four options to follow up.

4.10 Simon showed everyone a letter from Mark Jones, the Deputy Chief of Essex. The letter was directed to Cath Reynolds but has been forwarded to the FRSUG. Tony is to contact Peter Wagner of CTIF to understand what is required. Simon will forward the letter to the Group to look at.

4.11 Since 1994 CTIF have produced a series of reports which have become more reliable and of interest over the years. They collect from member countries fire services and there is a small overlap with what WFSC do but don't make their figures internationally comparable. For example Chinese fire deaths are reported as 0.2 per 100,000 population. This figure is very low; it almost certainly fails to take into account the many fire deaths which take place outside the main urban centres, including the hundreds of workers who die annually in mining fires.

4.12 Clarified for Simon Hunt - CTIF and WFSC are not the same organisation.

5 Update on IRS Launch

5.1 Darren Sugg gave an update on the status of the IRS project. The system went live and was available for use from 20 September. Since 1 October Warwickshire FRS have been using the system entering live data onto the IRS. 58 FRSs are yet to begin using the IRS.

5.2 Arrangements for FRS training are in place

5.3 An FRS Circular will be released soon. It states that every FRS must be using the system by March 2009. Until then we will be running the IRS and current system in parallel.

5.4 Dave Beverley asked whether FRSs would have to enter data both onto the FDR1 form and the IRS. Darren confirmed that data would be entered on to one or the other only. When the FRS is ready to start using the IRS they create an impact assessment and contact the Project Office for training. The FRS trainers then roll out the training to the IRS users within their FRS.

5.5 Annual reviews will be held to update the collection, for example by adding or removing questions or amending options menus.

5.6 An annual fire death verification exercise will still be carried out independently from the IRS collection. The FRSs have six months from recording the incident to report fire deaths.

5.7 Aggregated reports and findings are available in bulletins and annual publications. FRSs can also print individual reports off when required.

6 Draft Constitution

6.1 A few changes to the Draft Constitution were suggested by members and these have been incorporated by Samantha Wright. A copy of this will be available on the FRSUG website when it goes live.

6.2 Sheila has spoken with Anna Hayes regarding the possibility of the FPA hosting our FRSUG website. Sheila will continue to liaise with Anna and let Samantha know of the outcome.

6.3 It was noted that at present we do not have a Vice Chair. It was suggested to choose a Vice Chair on the day of the meeting if for any reason the Chair was unavailable. This was agreed.

6.4 A work plan to include development of data sharing protocols will be new features of the Groups responsibilities and will be added to the Constitution.

6.5 A Data Sharing Protocol section was added. This will allow us to share data with other areas using a structured and methodical approach. Simon is to look at feasibility and suggest a mechanism to discuss with the Group. A plan should be produced by April 2008.

6.6 Dave Beverley cautioned against being over ambitious in the formal work plan as it may put large workloads onto groups of people and become unproductive.

7 Discussion on development of a work plan for the Group

7.1 A work plan and data sharing protocols will be new features of the Groups responsibilities and will be added to the Constitution. This was discussed under item 6 in the agenda.

8 Development of data sharing protocols for the Group

8.1 Data sharing protocols will be developed as a subset of the Work plan. These will be looked at and discussed during February's meeting.

9 Any Other Business

9.1 Tony said he sent a copy of the WFSC annual report to David Champion, but now he has left asked to whom he should send it. Kirsty said to continue to send a copy to Cath Reynolds and she can forward it on to the appropriate people. Once someone has been appointed to replace David then the Group will be informed.

9.2 If anyone in the Group would like to see a copy of the annual report Tony can send it via Samantha.

9.3 Dave Smith asked if there were any Fire Statistics relating to the Fire Safety Order. Dave Beverley said that some work was due to take place tomorrow but had been cancelled. A separate Group was set up under the Practitioners Forum to look at the Fire Safety Order. This Group will see the number and type of inspections and is Chaired by Richard Smith, Deputy Chief Fire Officer of Mid & West Wales.

9.4 As previously mentioned, Sheila will speak to Anna Hayes regarding the FPA hosting the FRSUG website.

9.5 Steve Emery said that if the FPA offer falls through we may be able to use the DCMS website AGORA.

9.6 Samantha to arrange February 2008 dates for the next FRSUG meeting.

Date and location of Next Meeting

Tuesday 12 February 2008; 10.30 - 13.00
Eland House, LMR 3ABC, London